Robert Mueller Is Investigating Donald Trump For Possible Obstruction Of Justice | Hardball

>>> GOOD EVENING. I'M CHRIS MATTHEWS IN
WASHINGTON. DONALD TRUMP AND HIS TIES WITH
MOSCOW REMAIN THE BIG STORY HERE EVEN ON A DAY STRUCK BY
VIOLENCE. LATE THIS EVENING, ANOTHER
BOMBSHELL FROM "THE WASHINGTON POST."
QUOTE, THE SPECIAL COUNSEL OVERSEEING THE INVESTIGATION
INTO RUSSIA'S ROLE IN THE 2016 ELECTION IS INTERVIEWING SENIOR
INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS AS PART OF A WIDENING PROBE THAT NOW
INCLUDES AN EXAMINATION OF WHETHER PRESIDENT TRUMP
ATTEMPTED TO OBSTRUCT JUSTICE. SO HE'S IN THE CROSSHAIRS.
ALTHOUGH FORMER DIRECTOR COMEY ASSURED PRESIDENT TRUMP HE WAS
NOT UNDER INVESTIGATION, OFFICIALS NOW SAY THAT CHANGED
SHORTLY AFTER COMEY'S FIRING. THIS COMES AFTER "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" REPORTED THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN CONSIDERING
FIRING MR. MUELLER HIMSELF, BUT SOMEONE ON HIS STAFF WAVED HIM
OFF THE IDEA WARNING THIS WOULD MAKE A BAD SITUATION WORSE.
WE'LL SEE ABOUT THAT. YESTERDAY DEPUTY ATTORNEY
GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN ASSURED MEMBERS OF CONGRESS THAT
MR. MUELLER'S INVESTIGATION WOULD REMAIN INDEPENDENT.
>> DIRECTOR MUELLER IS GOING TO HAVE A FULL DEGREE OF IPDENCE
THAT HE NEEDS. AS LONG AS I'M IN THIS POSITION,
HE'S NOT GOING TO BE FIRED WITHOUT GOOD CAUSE.
>> THAT'S BAD NEWS FOR TRUMP. FOR NOW, ROBERT MUELLER IS SAFE.
I'M JOINED BY "WASHINGTON POST'S" DEVLIN BARRETT, GLENN
THRUSH, AND ASHLEY PARKER, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER FOR "THE
WASHINGTON POST." THANK YOU ALL.
LET ME START WITH GLENN AND WORK ACROSS THE TABLE HERE.
LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS. "THE WASHINGTON POST" IS
REPORTING TONIGHT THAT THE SPECIAL COUNSEL ROBERT MUELLER
IS IN FACT FOCUSING ON THE PRESIDENT NOT ABOUT THE RUSSIAN
MATTER SO MUCH RIGHT NOW, BUT WHAT ABOUT HE DID TO QUASH THE
INVESTIGATION, WHETHER HE -- I THINK IT'S ABOUT COMEY AND WHAT
HE TRIED TO GET COMEY TO DO, SWEAR LOYALTY TO HIM, END THE
INVESTIGATION OF THE MICHAEL FLYNN, AND ULTIMATELY FIRED THE
GUY. ARE THEY THE ELEMENTS OF THIS
CASE? >> WELL, YOU KNOW, AS PEOPLE
HAVE SAID BEFORE, IT'S OFTEN NOT THE CRIME BUT THE COVER-UP.
AND WE KNEW GENERALLY THAT THE COMEY -- HIS INTERACTIONS WITH
COMEY WERE PROBLEMATIC FROM AN OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE POINT OF
VIEW. I'M NOT SAY HE OBSTRUCTED
JUSTICE, BUT CERTAINLY WORTH INVESTIGATING.
WHAT'S NOVEL ABOUT THIS STORY IS THEY'RE ALSOE ALSO TALKING TO D
COATS, ADMIRAL ROGERS OF THE NSA AND ONE OF ADMIRAL ROGERS'
DEPUTIES. I'M VERY INTRIGUED TO FIGURE OUT
WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT.
AND, CHRIS, WHAT MAKES THIS VERY INTERESTING IS WE REPORTED
YESTERDAY THAT THE THING THAT IS DRIVING THE PRESIDENT MOST
CRAZY, THE REASON WHY HE WOULD EVEN CONSIDER TRYING TO GET
ROSENSTEIN TO GET RID OF MUELLER, IS HE WANTED AN
EXONERATION PERSONALLY IN THIS MATTER.
AND WHAT "THE WASHINGTON POST" STORY DOES IS PRECISELY THE
OPPOSITE. >> LET ME GO TO DEVLIN BARRETT
WHO BROKE THIS STORY FOR THE POST.
TELL US HOW IT ALL FITS TOGETHER, TRUMP'S FEAR OF A
RELATIONSHIP PERHAPS. I'M TRYING TO SEE IT FROM
TRUMP'S POINT OF VIEW. SOME CONCERN THAT THERE'S A
RELATIONSHIP, AN AXIS OF EVIL AS FAR AS HE'S CONCERNED BETWEEN
COMEY AND MUELLER. AND, IN FACT, TRUMP'S DISLIKE
FOR HAVING ANYBODY COMING AT HIM, AND THIS IS A CASE WHERE
THEY'RE GOING AT HIM ON A MATTER THAT COULD BE IMPEACHABLE.
>> RIGHT. SO WHAT WE'RE REPORTING IS THAT
THERE IS A SERIOUS LOOK, A SERIOUS INVESTIGATION INTO
TRUMP'S CONDUCT ABOUT POSSIBLE ATTEMPTED OBSTRUCTION OF
JUSTICE. AND, LOOK, A LOT OF THE FACTUAL
STUFF IS OUT THERE. YOU KNOW, COMEY CERTAINLY LAID
OUT A LOT OF FACTS THAT HE SAID HE WAS CONCERNED.
BUT HE SAID, ULTIMATELY THAT'S UP TO MUELLER TO TAKE A LOOK AT.
WHAT WE'RE TOLD IS MUELLER IS IN FACT TAKING A LOOK AT IT.
AS GLENN POINTED OUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S AN INTERESTING PART OF THIS
THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE TALKING TO, YOU KNOW, SENIOR
INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
>> DO WE KNOW HOW CLOSE THIS IS TO TARGETING HIM?
I MEAN WE HEAR THESE PHRASES LIKE SUBJECT OF INVESTIGATION,
INTERESTED PARTY, WHATEVER, AND THEN WE KNOW THE TERM TARGET.
IS TRUMP A TARGET? >> WELL, TECHNICALLY SPEAKING,
TRUMP CAN'T BE A TARGET IN THE NORMAL LEGAL SENSE OF THE WORD
BECAUSE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT POLICY IS THAT A SITTING
PRESIDENT CAN'T BE INDICTED. BUT THE POINT HERE -- THAT'S A
LITTLE NICETY. THE POINT HERE IS THAT THERE IS
AN INVESTIGATION GOING ON TO SEE IF THE PRESIDENT MAY HAVE
COMMITTED A CRIME. THAT'S A PRETTY BIG DEAL.
I THINK THAT'S A REMARKABLE STEP IN THIS INVESTIGATION GENERALLY.
>> WELL, WHO ELSE COULD BE FOCUSED ON HIS GUILT OF
OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, WHETHER IT'S IMPEACHABLE OR INDICTABLE
IN EITHER CASE, THAN THE PERSON WHO DID IT?
MAYBE I'M TALKING A REDUNDANCY, BUT THERE'S ONLY ONE GUY THAT
CAN OBSTRUCT JUSTICE IN THIS CASE.
THAT'S THE PRESIDENT, WHO HAS HIRING AND FIRING AUTHORITY
ULTIMATELY OVER ANYBODY IN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH BECAUSE HE
COULD KEEP FIRING PEOPLE A LA NIXON UNTIL HE GOT THE PERSON TO
DO WHAT HE WANTED HIM TO DO OR FOUND THE PERSON THAT WOULD DO
IT, YOU KNOW. >> WELL, THAT'S RIGHT.
A KEY PART OF THIS INVESTIGATION IS THE FIRING OF COMEY ITSELF
OBVIOUSLY. AND WE'RE TOLD THAT IT WAS DAYS
AFTER THAT EVENT THAT THIS INVESTIGATION, LOOKING
SPECIFICALLY AT THE PRESIDENT'S CONDUCT BEGAN.
>> LET'S TALK TO ASHLEY. YOU GUYS REPORT THESE GREAT
STORIES EVERY DAY IN THIS GREAT RIVALRY BETWEEN THE TIMES AND
THE POST. THIS TRUMP DETERMINATION TO
CONTROL ALL THINGS ON THE PLANET, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THAT
PART. HE OWNS THINGS.
HE BUYS THINGS. THE GUY BASICALLY CONTROLS THE
UNIVERSE THAT HE'S IN TANGIBLE TOUCH WITH.
NOW HE FINDS HIMSELF IN A SITUATION WHERE THERE'S SUCH A
THING AS A JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND AN FBI DIRECTOR, AND BECAUSE
OF HIS BEHAVIOR AND MAN HANDLING, THERE'S A SPECIAL
COUNSEL LOOKING AT HIM. IT MAKES SENSE ACCORDING TO THE
REPORTING THAT WE'RE GETTING THAT HE WILL TRY TO GET RID OF
THIS GUY. NOW WE FIND OUT THE GUY HAS HIM
IN THE CROSSHAIRS, THAT HE'S THE SUBJECT OF AN OBJECTION OF
JUSTICE INVESTIGATION. >> ORIGINALLY THE PRESIDENT
DIDN'T LIKE THE INVESTIGATION INTO POSSIBLE COLLUSION AND
BECAUSE HE WAS TRYING TO CONTROL IT AND PUBLICLY EXONERATE
HIMSELF, HE TOOK SOME STEPS THAT HAVE NOW LED TO THIS NEXT
INVESTIGATION INTO POSSIBLE OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE THAT IS
BEING LED BY MUELLER. AND NOW HE'S CERTAINLY NOT GOING
TO LIKE THAT AS GLENN'S STORY MENTIONED LAST NIGHT.
AND LIKELY NORMALLY IN ONE OF THESE SITUATIONS, A TRADITIONAL
PRESIDENT WHEN THEY ARE GETTING INVESTIGATED FOR THIS, THEY LOCK
DOWN. THEY HAVE THEIR LAWYERS DO ALL
THE SPEAKING FOR THEM. BUT TRUMP, IF HISTORY IS ANY
INDICATION, IS GOING TO TRY TO CONTROL THIS, GOING TO TRY TO
GET IN FRONT OF THIS, AND THAT'S WHERE HE COULD RUN INTO EVEN
MORE HEADACHES. >> JOHN, EVERYBODY HAS WATCHED
THIS FIGHT BETWEEN THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES AND THE
EXECUTIVE GOING BACK TO SCOOTER LIBBY AND ALL THAT CRAP THAT
WENT ON WITH THE NEOCONS IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND OVER IN THE
DEFENSE DEPARTMENT. THE INTELLIGENCE PEOPLE DON'T
PARTICULARLY LIKEWISE GUY POLITICIANS.
THEY DON'T LIKE THEM. THEY DON'T LIKE PEOPLE THAT
COVER THEIR BUTT EVERY TIME THEY DO SOMETHING WRONG.
WHAT ROLE WILL THE TENSION COMMUNITY PLAY IN THIS CASE
BECAUSE IF IT SHIFTS FROM THE TIES WITH RUSSIA TO THE QUESTION
OF COVERING UP THOSE BEHAVIORS, WHAT IS HE FEARFUL?
IS HE AFRAID OF -- PROBABLY NOT WHAT STEVE BANNON WILL OR WON'T
SAY OR REINCE PRIEBUS. HE MUST BE WORRIED ABOUT THE
PUBLIC SERVANTS, THE CIVIL SER
VANTS AROUND HIM. >> WHEN I LOOKED AT THE HEARINGS
OVER THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS, IT SEEMED TO ME THE BIG MISSING
PIECE HERE -- A -- AND THIS MAY WHAT HAS CHANGED THE STORY A
BILL -- IS THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY INSIGHT PUBLICLY INTO
WHATEVER CONVERSATIONS THE PRESIDENT HAD WITH THE DIRECTOR
OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, DAN COATS.
>> THEY WON'T TALK. >> WELL, THEY WON'T TALK.
THAT'S RIGHT. SO FAR THEY HAVEN'T TALKED.
>> WILL THEY TALK UNDER THE PRESSURE OF A SUBPOENA?
WILL THEY TALK TO FBI AGENT WHO'S COME AND INTERVIEW THEM?
>> OH, OF COURSE THEY WILL. >> OR DO YOU NEED A GRAND JURY?
>> NO. I THINK THEY'LL TALK UNDER OATH
TO MUELLER'S PEOPLE. COATS DIDN'T TALK PUBLICLY.
ROGERS DID SOME CLOSED SESSION .
MY HUNCH HERE IS WHATEVER TOOK PLACE IN THOSE CONVERSATIONS IS
GOING TO BE PIVOTAL BECAUSE WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT COMEY HEARD
FROM TRUMP, IT RAISES SUSPICIONS.
IF YOU FIND THAT ULTIMATELY THE PRESIDENT ALSO ASKED COATS AND
OTHERS TO INTERVENE WITH COMEY, I THINK IT ADDS A LOT OF
EVIDENCE, A LOT OF WEIGHT TO THE SUSPICION ABOUT OBSTRUCTION OF
JUSTICE. SO I THINK THAT MAY BE THE NEW
ELEMENT THAT WE'RE SEEING EMERGE.
>> THEY'RE NOT WEASELS, THESE GUYS.
THEY ARE MEN IN THIS CASE WHO HAVE PROUD CAREERS BEHIND THEM,
AND THEY'D LIKE TO HAVE PROUD LEGACIES.
THEY'RE NOT LIKE THE WEASELY PEOPLE RUN AGO ROUND THAT TABLE
WITH HIM IN THE CABINET THE OTHER DAY.
A SPOKESPERSON FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PERSONAL LAWYER, MARC
KASOWITZ -- NOW HE'S GOT A LAWYER FOR SPOKESPEOPLE.
FOLLOWING THE STATEMENT IN RESPONSE TO "THE WASHINGTON
POST" REPORTING, QUOTE, THE FBI LEAK OF INFORMATION REGARDING
THE PRESIDENT IS OUTRAGEOUS AND INEXCUSABLE, AND ILLEGAL.
LET'S GO TO THE GUY WHO GOT THE STORY.
DEVLIN, ARE YOU GUILTY OF ALL THOSE CRIMES?
I MEAN IT JUST SEEMS LIKE ANYTHING THAT GETS REPORTED
UNOFFICIALLY ABOUT THIS ADMINISTRATION, HE DIDN'T PUT
OUT IN SOME SORT OF BLEEP OR WHATEVER, TWEET, IS SOMEHOW A
CRIME. IF IT HASN'T BEEN TWEETED BY
TRUMP, IT'S A CRIME. WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHAT
HAPPENS BEHIND THE SCENES. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS
LAWYER'S MOUTH PIECE? NOW WE'VE GOT A MOUTHPIECE WITH
A MOUTHPIECE. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS.
GO AHEAD. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF IT, THE
CHARGE THAT YOU GUYS ARE GUILTY OF A CRIME OR SOMEBODY IS?
DEVLIN? >> I'M SORRY.
I DIDN'T REALIZE THAT WAS TO ME. ONE OF THE THINGS --
>> THAT'S HOW I ASK A QUESTION. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM, DEVLIN?
LET'S GO. >> SPEAK, DEVLIN.
>> HERE'S THE THING. HERE'S HOW I SEE IT.
PART OF WHAT'S INTERESTING TO ME ABOUT WHAT WE'RE REPORTING IS
THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FRAMING THE COMEY/TRUMP DYNAMIC
AS ESSENTIALLY A HE SAID/HE SAID.
WHAT I THINK IS INTERESTING ABOUT THE CURRENT STATE OF THE
INVESTIGATION IS THEIR TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, OKAY, WHO CAN
CORROBORATE COMEY'S VERSION OR TRUMP'S VERSION OF EVENTS, AND
THEY'RE LOOKING AT FRANKLY SENIOR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHO
HAD OTHER CONVERSATIONS WITH THE PRESIDENT ON SOME OF THESE
TOPICS. AND THAT'S AN IMPORTANT DYNAMIC.
>> DID YOU HEAR McLAUGHLIN JUST SAY THAT?
IT WOULD BE PEOPLE OF SOME PROMINENCE WHO ARE PRINCIPLED,
PEOPLE LIKE THE HEAD OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, THE CIA PEOPLE AND
NSA, PEOPLE WHO HAVE PRINCIPLED POSITIONS.
>> THERE'S NOT THAT MANY ONE-WITNESS CASES IN THE WORLD.
PROSECUTORS DON'T DO MUCH WITH ONE-WITNESS CASES.
SO WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS YOU'RE SEEING THEM GATHER UP A BUNCH OF
WITNESSES AND SEE WHAT THE TOTALITY OF THAT IS.
>> OKAY. LET ME ASK GLENN.
IF YOU WERE TO HAVE LIKE A UNIVERSAL JUDGMENT LIKE WE
STUDIED RELIGION, WHERE EVERYBODY IS GOING TO BE IN THE
ROOM AND KNOW THE FULL TRUTH. >> I HOPE NOT, MAN.
>> IN THIS CASE, I HOPE WE'RE GOING TO GET CLOSE.
WHO WOULD YOU WANT IN THE ROOM TO FIND OUT WHETHER THERE WAS
OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE HERE, WHICH IS NOW APPARENTLY GOING TO
THE SUBJECT OF THIS GENERAL COUNSEL'S EFFORTS FOR A WHILE
NOW, TO FIND OUT WHETHER THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
OBSTRUCTED JUSTICE. WHO COULD PROVE SUCH?
>> LOOK, I'D WANT YOU IN THE ROOM.
BUT, LOOK, I'M NOT SURE WHO THE ULTIMATE ARBITER IS.
CLEARLY THE WHITE HOUSE IS ATTEMPTING TO ERODE MUELLER'S
CREDIBILITY. HERE'S WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT
THAT KASOWITZ STATEMENT. HE SAID THE FBI IS LEAKING ALL
THIS STUFF. DEVLIN, CORRECT ME IF I'M
WRONG -- >> DEVLIN'S GONE.
>> I'M HERE. >> OKAY.
HE'S HERE. >> WHAT DO YOU WANT?
>> YOUR STORY DOES NOT SAY THAT YOUR SOURCING ON THIS WAS THE
FBI. KASOWITZ WANTED TO INJECT INTO
THAT STORY THEIR BEEF WITH THE FBI.
IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT YOUR STORY ASCERTAINED.
IT IS CLEAR -- I THINK THE TELL OF KASOWITZ'S STATEMENT IS THEY
WANT TO PICK THAT FIGHT WITH COMEY, AND THEY WANT TO PICK
THAT FIGHT WITH THE FBI. >> THAT'S RIGHT.
AND I'LL BE HONEST. FROM WHERE I SIT, IT'S NOT CLEAR
TO ME HOW MUCH THEY EVEN DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN MUELLER
AND THE FBI AND COMEY AT THIS POINT.
BUT YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT OUR STORY DOESN'T PUT ANY OF
THIS ON FBI OFFICIALS. >> FIRST I THINK IT'S A COMPLETE
DISTRACTION. I DON'T CARE WHETHER THE
PRESIDENT'S VALET GAVE US THE INFORMATION.ION.
I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. LET ME GET BACK TO YOU, DEVLIN.
I WANT TO ASK ABOUT THIS SENSE FROM THE PRESIDENT'S
PERSPECTIVE, WHEN HE PUTS HIS LITTLE HEAD -- EVERYTHING IS
LITTLE, I GUESS, WHEN HE PUTS HIS HEAD ON THE PILLOW TONIGHT
AND HE STARTS WORRYING, HE'S WORRIED BECAUSE THE DEEP STATE
AS THE RIGHT WING WOULD SAY, THE DEEP STATE'S COMING.
IT COULD BE JUST THE TRUTH'S COMING AFTER HIM.
WHAT'S HE REALLY AFRAID OF, AND WHO HAS THE TRUTH?
WHO POSSESSES THE ABILITY TO HURT HIM IN COURT OR BEFORE THE
CONGRESS? >> WELL, I THINK WHAT THEY'RE
DOING IS THEY'RE COMPILING THE STRONGEST EVIDENTIARY CASE THEY
HAVE FOR GOOD OR BAD. AND, YOU KNOW, I

Robert Mueller Is Investigating Donald Trump For Possible Obstruction Of Justice | Hardball | MSNBC

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