EXCLUSIVE: The Ethics Chief Who Took On The White House | All In

>>> ALL I REALLY WANTED IS THE PERSON WHO HEADS UP THE
GOVERNMENT OF GOVERNMENT ETHICS TO BE ETHICAL.
I DON'T SEN'T SEE THAT. I SEE HIM TAKING POSITIONS THAT
HE HAS NOT EVEN LOOKED AT. HE SEEMS TO BE IN THE SPIN ROOM
FROM THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE OF THE AISLE.
>> JOINING ME NOW, THAT PERSON. NOW THE OUTGOING DIRECTOR OF THE
OFFICE OF GOVERNMENT ETHICS. LET ME START WITH THIS.
I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO LAY THIS DOWN.
WHAT IS YOUR JOB? WHAT ARE YOU TASKED WITH DOING
AT OGE? >> WELL, HI, CHRIS, IT'S NICE TO
BE HERE. THE OFFICE OF GOVERNMENT ETHICS
IS THE PREVENTION PART OF THE GOVERNMENT WEST WORK THE
ADMINISTRATION, NOT ONLY PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTEES BUT ALSO
RANK AND FILE EMPLOYEES. WE HELP THEN DISCLOSE THEIR
FINANCIAL CONFLICTS OF INTEREST. WE'RE THERE TO SOLVE PROBLEMS IN
ADVANCE. THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING
UNDER THREE PRESSESES NOW AND I'VE REALLY ENJOYED THE JOB.
>> MY UNDERSTANDING IS THIS GROWS OUT OF WATERGATE.
YOU ARE THERE BECAUSE THERE ARE CRIMINAL STATUTES, CONFLICT OF
INTEREST LAWS, THAT PEOPLE MIGHT VIOLATE AND YOU'RE THERE TO
PROTECT THEM FROM DOING THAT. ESSENTIALLY.
>> THAT'S RIGHT. AS I SAID, WE'RE THE PREVENTION
MECHANISM SO WE'RE REALLY HELPING TO SET PEOPLE TWOE STEPS
BACK FROM THE LINE. HOPEFULLY, ONLY INADVERTENT.
THESE ARE EXTREMELY COMPLICATED LAWS.
THEY'RE NUANCED AND ALWAYS PAST AFTER THE LAST CRISIS.
OUR JOB IS TOO SERVE AS THE TRANSLATOR AND TO HELP FIND WAYS
TO MAKE THEY WILL WORK TOGETHER. AND WE HAVE A REALLY BIG
EDUCATION FOUNDATION ENSURE THAT FEDERAL EMPLOYEES, OR POLITICAL
APPOINTEES, UNDERSTAND THE RULES.
AND WE OFTEN WORK VERY CLOSELY TO PREVENT THOSE PROBLEMS.
>> YOU SAID YOU SERVED UNDER THREE PRESSESES.
HOW DIFFERENT WAS THIS THAN THE OTHER TWO?
>> WELL, I HAVE ONLY GOT REALLY GOOD THINGS TO SAY ABOUT THE
ETHICS PROGRAM THAT PRESIDENT BUSH RAN AND THE ETHIC PROGRAM
THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA RAN. WE GOT OFF TO KIND OF A GOOD
START INITIAL WHEN I THIS ADMINISTRATION BECAUSE HE HAD
PICKED AN THE EXCELLENT TRANSITION TEAM AND WE WORKED AN
OUTSIDE NONPROFIT GROUP TO BRING THE TWO CAMPAIGNS TRANSITION
TEAMS TOGETHER AND WORK THEM AND HELP MAKE SURE THEY WERE READY
FOR THE TRANSITION. AND I HAVE TO SAY A GREAT
RESPECT FOR BOTH TEAMS. I SAENLT CONGRATULATIONS E-MAIL
TO THE WINNING TEAM AND I SINCERELY TOLD THEM I WAS
LOOKING FORWARD TO WORKING WITH THEY WILL I GOT A VERY NICE
MESSAGE BACK SAYING THEY FELT SUPPORTED BY OGE AND WERE
LOOKING FORWARD TO GETTING DOWN TO THE TASK AT HANDLED.
AND THEN THEY WERE REPLACED ABOUT OUR CURRENT COUNCIL OF THE
PRESIDENT. SINCE THEN I WOULD STAY ETHICS
PROGRAM HAS BEEN A VERY SERIOUS DISAPPOINTMENT IN THE WHITE
HOUSE. >> WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
>> THE ETHICS PROGRAM, IS A COMPLIANCE BASED PROGRAM IN MANY
WAYS. WE HAVE VERY BASIC BARE BONES
CRIMINAL LAWS, CIVIL LAWS, ADMINISTRATIVE REGULATIONS, THAT
SAY HERE'S THE ABSOLUTE MINIMUM YOU'RE GOING TO DO.
THAT'S JUST THE SKELETON. AND THE MEET OF THE PROGRAM HAS
BEEN THE ETHICAL TRADITIONS AND THE NORMS THAT HAS EVOLVED OVER
40 YEARS. AND WE'RE ABLE TO SAY, IN MOST
CASES, THAT WE HAVE THE GOLD STANDARD OF ETHICS PROGRAMS
INTERNATIONALLY. AND THAT FEDERAL EMPLOYEES ARE
NOT JUST MERELY NOT CRIMINALS. THAT APPOINTEES ARE NOT JUST
AVOIDING VIOLATING LAWS BUT THEY GO FURTHER AND COME APPLY WITH
THOSE TRADITIONS. AN EXAMPLE IS THAT WITH
PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEES, THE PRIMARY CRIMINAL CONFLICT OF
INTEREST STATUTE SAYS YOU CAN'T PARTICIPATE IN SOMETHING WHERE
YOU HAVE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST. SO YOU CAN COME INTO GOVERNMENT
AND KEEP ALL OF YOUR COULD NOT FINANCIAL INTERESTS AND NOT RUN
AFOUL OF THAT LAW IF YOU WERE WILL TO PUT YOUR FEET UP ON THAT
ZPEKS READ YOUR NEWSPAPER ALL DAY AND DO YOUR JOB.
THAT'S UNWORKABLE. WE TAKE A RISK MANAGEMENT
APPROACH. WE SET UP OTHER MECHANISMS TO
PREVENT CONFLICTS OF INTEREST AND WE ARE TWO STEPS BACK FROM
THE LINE. THE CONSISTENT APPROACH THAT I'M
RUNNING INTO HAS BEEN, IF IT IS NOT ILLEGAL, WE'RE GOING TO DO
IT. IF THERE'S AN ARGUMENT, WE'RE
GOING TO DO IT. THAT HAS UNDERMINED THE PROGRAM
THAT HAS EXISTED FOR FOUR DECADES.
>> WHAT I'M HEARING IS THEY HAVE TAKEN AN AGGRESSIVE POSTURE IN
TERMS OF WHERE THEY CAN SET UP WITH RESPECT TO THE LINE ON
CONFLICTS, PARTICULARLY. THIS IS A RA REALLY IMPORTANT
QUESTION. YOUR JOB IS TO CERTIFY THAT
THERE'S NO CONFLICTS. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT, I WANT TO
YOU GIVE ME THIS. CAN YOU DEFINITIVELY SAY THAT
EVERYONE IN THE WHITE HOUSE INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT, FREE OF
CONFLICTS OF INTEREST? >> WELL NO.
WE'VE RECEIVED VERY LITTLE INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THE
INDIVIDUALS IN THE WHITE HOUSE DO ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS FOR A
LIVING. THEY'VE NEGOTIATED ETHICS
AGREEMENTS AND THEY'VE REFUSED TO EVEN LET THE OFFICE OF
GOVERNMENT ETHICS SEE IT. WE'VE ASKED FOR INFORMATION.
IT IS LIKE PULLING TEETH. WEEKS GO BY BEFORE WE GET
ANSWERS IN MANY CASES. AFTER I ISSUED A DATA CALL FOR
ALL THE WAIVERS AND NOTIFICATIONS THAT WERE ISSUED
AT THE END OF APRIL, THEY REFUSED TO ANXIOUS ANY QUESTIONS
FROM MY STAFF WHETHER ANY INDIVIDUALS HAD RECEIVED
WAIVERS. >> SO I WANT TO BE REALLY CLEAR.
THERE ARE CRIMINAL CONFLICT STATUS.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO RETAIN, THEY HAVE TO RECUSE THEMSELVES.
CAN YOU DEFINITIVELY STATE THAT THEY HAVE DONE THAT?
>> TO BE FAIR, I WOULD HAVE TO REWORK THAT QUESTION A LITTLE
BIT. I'M NOT TRYING TO DODGE BUT IT
IS A LITTLE MORE NUANCED THAN. THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THERE
IS NO BASIS FOR ANY SPECIFIC VIOLATIONS.
I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO SAY DEFINITIVELY THERE COULD
NOT BE THAT. THE BIGGER CONCERN IS BECAUSE
THIS IS A RISK MANAGEMENT PROGRAM, IT HAS BECOME CLEAR
THAT THEY HAVE A MUCH HIGHER TOLERANCE FOR RISK THAN WE DO.
WE HAVE A LOT MORE CONCERN OVER PRESIDENTIAL NO, MA'AM NIECES.
THEY HAVE TO GET OUR SIGN-OFF BEFORE THEY CAN GET A HEARING TO
COME INTO GOVERNMENT. WHITE HOUSE APPOINTEES ARE IN
GOVERNMENT LONG BEFORE WE GET THEIR REPORTS AND WE'RE ALMOST
DOING A POST MORTEM TO SEE IF THERE WAS A CONFLICT OF
INTEREST. WITH NOMINEES, WE WORK TO
PREVENT THEM IN ADVANCE. SO DOCUMENTING A HIGHER LEVEL OF
RISK IS INCONSISTENT WITH HOW WE'VE RUN THIS PROGRAM.
PEOPLE HAVE SAID, IS THERE DEFINITELY A VIOLATION.
OR CAN YOU DEFINITIVELY SAY THAT?
>> ONCE THE VIOLATION HAS HAPPENED, WE HAVE FAILED.
IT IS INCUMBENT UPON THE OFFICE OF GOVERNMENT ETHICS TO OBJECT
BEFORE WE REACH THAT POINT. WE'RE

EXCLUSIVE: The Ethics Chief Who Took On The White House | All In | MSNBC

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