Lawrence And Maddow On Donald Trump's Probe Of Pardon Powers | The Last Word

COMMISSION HIM. >> THANKS FOR DOING OVERTIME
WITH US TONIGHT. APPRECIATE IT.
>>> WE'RE JOINED NOW BY PHONE BY ROSALIND HELDERMAN, ONE OF THE
REPORTERS WHO BROKE THIS STORY ABOUT THE PRESIDENT CONSIDERING
PARDONS FOR HIMSELF, FOR HIS FAMILY, FOR HIS STAFF.
BROKE THAT STORY TONIGHT IN "THE WASHINGTON POST."
ROSALIND, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT.
WE'VE ALL BEEN STUDYING EVERY WORD OF THIS STORY.
PARDONS IS JUST ONE COMPONENT OF IT.
WE'RE GOING TO COME BACK TO THAT.
BUT TELL US SOME OF THE OTHER DISCOVERIES YOU'VE BEEN
REPORTING IN THIS STORY TONIGHT. >> WELL, SURE.
THE PARDONS DISCUSSION, WE UNDERSTAND, IS PART OF SORT OF A
BROADER CONVERSATION GOING ON WITH THE PRESIDENT AND HIS TEAM
ABOUT WAYS THAT THEY COULD LIMIT OR CURTAIL THE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION. THERE IS GREAT UNHAPPINESS ON
THE PART OF THE PRESIDENT THAT THE INVESTIGATION APPEARS TO BE
EXPANDING RAPIDLY, DAY BY DAY, AND PARTICULARLY APPEARS TO NOW
BE LOOKING AT HIS FINANCES. THE WRITTEN ORDER ESTABLISHING
THE SPECIAL COUNSEL -- EXCUSE E ME -- THE SPECIAL COUNSEL GAVE
HIM AUTHORITY TO LOOK AT COLLUSION WITH RUSSIA AND AT
MATTERS THAT ARISE OR AROSE DIRECTLY OUT OF THAT PROBE.
SO THERE'S CONVERSATION ABOUT ARE ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS
REALLY THINGS THAT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED MATTERS THAT AROSE
DIRECTLY FROM THE RUSSIA PROBE. >> YEAH, AND THE PROBE, AS WE'VE
SEEN WITH SPECIAL PROSECUTORS IN THE PAST, THEY CAN STUMBLE UPON
ANYTHING. THEY CAN BE LOOKING AT SOME
RUSSIAN CONNECTION AND LOOKING AT SOME BANK STATEMENT AND THEN
DISCOVER SOMETHING THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CAMPAIGN,
AND THAT WOULD FALL UNDER SOMETHING THAT ARISES DIRECTLY
FROM THE INVESTIGATION. >> WELL, SURE.
OF COURSE WHO IS THE ARBITER OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE EXCEEDING
THEIR MANDATE, THEIR WRITTEN ORDER?
IT'S THE SAME PROCESS YOU WERE JUST DISCUSSING.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OR, IN THIS CASE BECAUSE HE'S RECUSED
HIMSELF, THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL.
SO IT DOES SEEM AS THOUGH PART OF THIS IS A CONVERSATION ABOUT
SORT OF MAKING A PUBLIC CASE AS OPPOSED TO SORT OF A LEGAL CASE.
WE'RE ALSO TOLD THAT THERE IS A LOT OF CONVERSATION ABOUT
POSSIBLE CONFLICTS ON THE PART OF MUELLER AND MEMBERS OF HIS
TEAM. A NEW ONE THAT WE REPORTED THIS
EVENING IS APPARENTLY THERE'S DISCUSSION OF BOB MUELLER'S
MEMBERSHIP AT, OF ALL THINGS, THE TRUMP NATIONAL GOLF COURSE
IN NORTHERN VIRGINIA WHERE HE WAS A MEMBER UNTIL 2011 AND SOME
VARIETY OF, WE'RE TOLD BY WHITE HOUSE ADVISERS, DISPUTE OVER HIS
MEMBERSHIP FEES AT THAT CLUB. NOW, I SHOULD SAY A SPOKESMAN
FOR BOB MUELLER HAS TOLD US THAT NO SUCH DISPUTE OCCURRED.
SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THAT.
BUT THIS ACTIVE EFFORT TO FIND WAYS TO UNDERCUT THE PROBE BY
SAYING IT'S GROWN TOO LARGE, BEYOND ITS SCOPE, AND BY LOOKING
AT CONFLICTS BY MUELLER AND HIS TEAM.
>> ROSALIND, I WANT TO GO BACK TO THAT GOLF MEMBERSHIP, WHICH
SEEMS SO TRIVIAL WHEN YOU MENTION IT, BUT THERE'S
SOMETHING REALLY IMPORTANT IN IT IN YOUR STORY, WHICH REALLY
JUMPED OUT AT ME. AND THAT IS THAT A SPOKESPERSON
FOR THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR SPECIFICALLY RESPONDED TO THAT
ONE POINT AND SAID THAT ONE POINT IS COMPLETELY UNTRUE.
AND SO WHEN WE SAY THAT THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR DOESN'T
COMMENT IN ANY WAY, THAT'S 99% TRUE BECAUSE THE SPECIAL
PROSECUTOR DID COMMENT TONIGHT ABOUT THIS DISPUTE WITH THE
DONALD TRUMP GOLF CLUB BEING UNTRUE.
>> YEAH. YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT.
I MEAN CLEARLY THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR
TOPIC, AND I GUESS BECAUSE IT HAS TO DO WITH HIM PERSONALLY,
THAT THEY FELT LIKE THEY COULD OR SHOULD RESPOND TO.
>> AND YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT IN THE PIECE MARK CURALO, WHO WAS
THE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE TRUMPM LEGAL TEAM WHO JUST QUIT THAT
JOB, QUITTING WITHIN 24 HOURS OF THIS INTERVIEW THAT DONALD TRUMP
DID WITH "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THAT THE LEGAL TEAM KNEW NOTHING
ABOUT, THAT WAS VERY MUCH ABOUT THE WORK THAT THE LEGAL TEAM IS
WORKING ON. AND YOU REPORT THAT THAT
INTERVIEW WITH "THE NEW YORK TIMES" CAME AFTER A MEETING WITH
THE LEGAL TEAM RUN BY THE NEW MEMBER OF THE TEAM, TY COBB, THE
NEW LAWYER ON THE TEAM. AND IN THAT MEETING, TY COBB
BELIEVED THAT HE GOT AN AGREEMENT FOR A NEW KIND OF
DISCIPLINE FROM THE PRESIDENT WHO WAS IN THE MEETING AND
EVERYONE ELSE INVOLVED, A NEW KIND OF DISCIPLINE ABOUT PUBLIC
COMMENTS ABOUT THIS. AND THEN WITHIN 24 HOURS OF
THAT, THE PRESIDENT IS DOING THIS WILD INTERVIEW WITH "THE
NEW YORK TIMES," WHICH OTHERS IN THE WHITE HOUSE DIDN'T KNOW
ABOUT. THE LEGAL TELL DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT
IT. AND RIGHT AFTER THAT, WE SEE
MARK CURALO, THE SPOKESMAN FOR THE LEGAL TEAM, QUITS.
IT'S HARD TO THINK THAT INTERVIEW WITH "THE NEW YORK
TIMES" AND BEING BLINDSIDED LIKE THAT IS UNRELATED TO MARK CURALO
QUITTING. >> YEAH, I MEAN IT SEEMS LIKE
THERE'S A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF RESTRUCTURING THAT'S GOING ON IN
THE LEGAL TIME. YOU'VE GOT THAT TIMELINE RIGHT,
AND IT MAY WELL BE THERE'S SOME CONNECTION BETWEEN THOSE EVENTS.
SO WE'VE GOT CURALO RESIGNING TONIGHT.
THERE'S ALSO REPORTING THIS EVENING THAT MARC KASOWITZ'S
ROLE IS GOING TO BE -- HE, OF COURSE, IS THE PRESIDENT'S
PRIVATE ATTORNEY, WHO'S BEEN SEEN SORT OF AS THE CHIEF
RESPONDER ON RUSSIA, THAT HIS ROLE IS GOING TO BE REDUCED
THOUGH HE WILL STILL BE THERE. THERE'S ALSO JAY SEKULOW, WHO IS
SORT OF THE PUBLIC FACE OF THE TEAM.
HE GOES ON TELEVISION. AND JOHN DOWD, WHO IS KIND OF
MORE OF A VETERAN WASHINGTON HAND, WHO IS GOING TO BE MORE OF
THE WORK BEHIND THE SCENES. >> ROSALIND, I NOTICE THAT SOME
OF YOUR SOURCES, UNNAMED SOURCES ON THIS WITHIN THE TRUMP WORLD,
TALKING ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S INQUIRIES ABOUT HIS PARDON
AUTHORITY, AND SPECIFICALLY PARDONING HIMSELF AND HIS STAFF.
SOME SUGGESTING THIS IS ALMOST AN ACADEMIC INQUIRY.
IT'S NOT REALLY ABOUT ANYTHING SPECIFIC THAT'S HAPPENING TO
ANYONE IN THE FAMILY OR THE STAFF OR THE PRESIDENT NOW.
WHAT WAS YOUR SENSE OF WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO CONVEY ABOUT THE
LEVEL OF SERIOUSNESS OF THIS INQUIRY?
>> YEAH, I THINK WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED IS A FAIR READ OF OUR
REPORTING. OUR UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THERE
IS NO IMMEDIATE RUSH TO TRY TO PARDON HIMSELF OR ANY PARTICULAR
BELIEF AT THE MOMENT THAT THAT'S GOING TO BECOME NECESSARY OR IS
NECESSARY. THAT RATHER THIS IS A
CONVERSATION ABOUT LEGAL OPTIONS OF WHAT THE LAW ALLOWS.
UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS CAN A PRESIDENT PARDON SOMEONE?
CAN HE PARDON A MEMBER OF STAFF? CAN HE PARDON A MEMBER OF HIS
FAMILY? CAN HE -- DOES THE LAW ALLOW HIM
TO PARDON HIMSELF? >> WHEN THESE WHITE HOUSE
SOURCES ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS, DO THEY SEEM AWARE THAT NO
PRESIDENT IN HISTORY HAS EVER ASKED ABOUT HIS AUTHORITY TO
PARDON HIS FAMILY, HIMSELF, AND HIS STAFF AT THE SAME TIME?
>> NO PRESIDENT HASAS EVER ATTEMPTED TO EXERCISE SUCH
AUTHORITY BEFORE. I CERTAINLY SEEM AWARE THAT
THESE ARE MATTERS THAT WILL WITHOUT LEGAL PRECEDENT AND ARE
UNSETTLED, PARTICULARLY ON THE QUESTION OF WHETHER A PRESIDENT
CAN PARDON HIMSELF. THERE'S QUITE A LOT OF LEGAL
DISPUTE AND LITERATURE ON THAT TOPIC AND NO REAL SETTLED
QUESTION FROM THE LEGAL COMMUNITY.
OF COURSE PART OF THAT IS BECAUSE IT HAS, AS YOU SAID, NOT
BEEN TESTED BEFORE. >> ROSALIND HELDERMAN, YOU WILL
HAVE ALL OF US PONDERING ALL OF THOSE QUESTIONS NOW FOR THE NEXT
HOUR AND CERTAINLY FOR THE NEXT 24 HOURS AND LONGER.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US TONIGHT ON THIS IMPORTANT
NIGHT OF REPORTING FOR

Lawrence And Maddow On Donald Trump's Probe Of Pardon Powers | The Last Word | MSNBC

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