US climate scientist: I was pushed out

YOUR ANALYSIS.
DAVID LEONHART OF THE "NEW YORK
TIMES."
THANKS FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
>>> SO IS THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION WAGING A WAR ON
EXPERTISE?
FROM CRASHING THE INTELLIGENCE
COMMUNITIES, RUSSIANAL CYSTS AND
SCIENTISTS DEALING WITH CLIMATE
CHANGE.
SINCE DONALD TRUMP TOOK OFFICE,
A DISTURBING PATTERN HAS
UNFOLDED AT THE EPA.
FIRING HALF THE MEMBERS OF ITS
SCIENTIFIC ADVISORY BOARD.
AND IN OTHER DEPARTMENTS,
CERTAIN CIVIL SERVANTS.
FORCIBLY REASSIGNED LIKE JOEL
CLEMENT, FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE
INTERIOR DEPARTMENT'S OFFICE OF
POLICY ANALYSIS, WHO WAS
SUMMARILY MOVED TO THE
ACCOUNTING DEPARTMENT AFTER
PUBLICLY SPEAKING OUT ABOUT THE
EFFECTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON
NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITIES.
AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM NEW
YORK.
MR. CLEMENT, WELCOME TO THE
PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU.
>> IS THAT WHY YOU WERE -- YOU
WERE MOVED?
HAS IT GOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH
YOUR PROFESSIONAL COMPETENCE, OR
IS IT BECAUSE YOU JUST SPOKE OUT
PUBLICLY ON THIS ISSUE?
>> I WAS REASSIGNED, I BELIEVE,
IN RETALIATION FOR THE WORK THAT
I WAS DOING TO ADDRESS THE
HEALTH AND SAFETY RISKS THAT
CLIMATE CHANGE PRESENTS TO THE
ALASKAN NATIVE COMMUNITIES ON
THE EDGE OF A MELTING ARCTIC.
>> AND JUST REMIND US EXACTLY
WHAT YOU WERE DOING THEN AND
WHAT YOU'RE DOING RIGHT NOW.
>> SO AT THE TIME I WAS
ORGANIZING THE FEDERAL GAEJMENT
WITH THIS ISSUE, A COMPLICATED
ISSUE, TRYING TO BRING THESE
FOLKS WHO LIVE ON THE NARROWEST
BITS OF LAND, PERMAFROST
MELTING, AND NO LONGER PROTECTED
BY THE SEA ICE.
SO THEY'RE ONE BIG STORM AWAY
FROM BECOMING REFUGEES.
THAT'S WHAT I WAS WORKING ON.
NOW I'VE BEEN REASSIGNED TO THAT
ACCOUNTING OFFICE THAT COLLECTS
ROYALTY INCOME FROM THE OIL AND
GAS INDUSTRIES.
>> OH, MY GOODNESS.
I MEAN, IT'S KIND OF A
WELLIAN -- ROYALTIES FROM THE
OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY.
OKAY.
SO WHY HAVE YOU DECIDED TO GO
PUBLIC?
>> WELL, I'M BLOWING THE WHISTLE
ON THE ADMINISTRATION FOR
RETALIATING AGAINST ME.
THIS IS A MATTER OF HEALTH AND
SAFETY FOR THESE FOLKS IN THE
ARCTIC.
HEAVEN FORBID THERE IS LOSS OF
LIFE IF A STORM COMES THROUGH
THIS FALL.
SO IT'S A VERY IMMEDIATE NEED
AND IT IS A RESPONSIBILITY OF
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO
ENGAGE.
AND HONESTLY, IT WILL BE VERY
DIFFICULT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM
WITHOUT DIRECT ENGAGEMENT FROM
WASHINGTON, D.C.
>> LET ME PUT TO YOU THE
ADMINISTRATION'S RESPONSE.
BASICALLY THEY ARE SAYING THAT
SENIOR EXECUTIVES ARE THE
HIGHEST-PAID EMPLOYEES IN THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
THEY'RE SAYING THAT PERSONNEL
MOVES AMONG THE SENIOR EXECUTIVE
SERVICE ARE BEING CONDUCTED TO
BETTER SERVE THE TAXPAYER AND
THE DEPARTMENT'S OPERATIONS.
DO YOU BUY THAT?
>> YEAH, THE -- THE SENIOR
EXECUTIVE SERVICE IS MEANT TO BE
A MOBILE WORK FORCE.
SO WHEN WE SIGN UP FOR THAT, WE
KNOW THAT WE COULD BE MOVED.
IT IS NOT, HOWEVER, SET UP TO BE
USED FOR RETALIATION.
SO THESE INVOLUNTARY
REASSIGNMENTS ARE LEGITIMATE.
THEY DID SEVERAL DOZEN AT ONCE,
WHICH RAISED A LOT OF EYEBROWS.
BUT ALSO MINE, OF COURSE, IS A
PRETTY FLAGRANT CHANGE OF
OFFICE.
I MOVE FROM 25 SCIENTISTS TO
BEING A SENIOR ADVISER WITH A
JOB TITLE BUT NO DUTIES AND NO
STAFF.
>> SO LET US DRILL DOWN ON
WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE
SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY.
AS I SAID, WE'RE SEEING IT ALL
OVER THE PLACE.
THE IDEA OF DISMISSING EXPERTS
AND GOING IT ALONE, SO TO SPEAK.
WE SAW SEVERAL MONTHS AGO A
MASSIVE MARCH IN WASHINGTON FOR
SCIENCE.
FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHAT'S
HAPPENING?
WE SEE PEOPLE BEING FIRED.
WE SEE PEOPLE BEING REASSIGNED.
BUT WHAT ACTUAL PRACTICAL EFFECT
IS THAT HAPPENING OR WILL IT
HAVE ON THE GROUND?
>> WELL, WE'RE SEEING SEVERAL
EFFECTS ALREADY, AND THAT'S WHY
I RAISED THE PLIGHT OF THE
ALASKAN NATIVES.
THOSE VILLAGES ARE REALLY ONE
STEP AWAY FROM REFUGEE STATUS.
BUT ALSO WHAT ARE THE
IMPLICATIONS FOR THE OPIOID
CRISIS OR NATIONAL SECURITY,
DIPLOMACY, WHEN YOU'RE REMOVING
THE SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS AND
THE SCIENTISTS SO SYSTEMATICALLY
IN ONGOING WAY FROM THE
AGENCIES.
IT'S TROUBLING.
AND IT'S TROUBLING TO A LOT OF
US THAT WORK IN THE CIVIL
SERVICE, AND WE ARE COMMITTED TO
THE CIVIL SERVICE, SUBJECT
MATTER EXPERTS AND SCIENTISTS
REALLY MAKE IT TICK.
SO IT'S TROUBLING.
AS AN AMERICAN, I'M VERY
CONCERNED, BECAUSE THERE ARE
LIKELY TO BE GREATER RISKS TO
THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF
AMERICANS.
>> AND I WANT TO ASK YOU, YOU
KNOW, WHAT IS THE MOOD INSIDE
THE DEPARTMENT?
AND JUST ANOTHER EXTRAORDINARY
THING HAPPENED OVER THE WEEKEND.
THE DEPARTMENT, I BELIEVE, WAS
TOLD BY THE WHITE HOUSE TO
PREVENT SENIOR EXPERTS FROM
MEETING WITH FACEBOOK CHIEF MARK
ZUCKERBERG WHEN HE WAS VISITING
THE ARCTIC -- THE ARCTIC AREA,
THE NATIONAL PARK THAT HE WANTED
TO GO AND CHECK UP ON SOME OF
THESE ISSUES THAT YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT.
I MEAN, THAT SOUNDS PRETTY
EXTRAORDINARY AND SOMEWHAT
PETTY.
>> YEAH.
I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO
WIN ANY AWARDS FOR NUANCE WITH
THESE MOVES.
IT DEFINITELY HAS CREATED A
HOSTILE WORK ENVIRONMENT IN THE
DEPARTMENT.
EVERYONE IS LOOKING OVER THEIR
SHOULDER, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER
THERE ARE SENIOR LEADERS OR EVEN
LOWER-LEVEL STAFF.
IT'S VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FOR
PEOPLE.
AND WHAT I'M HOPING IS THAT IT
WILL -- THEY WILL FIND -- LOOK
INTO THEIR RIGHTS, FIND THEIR
VOICES AND RAISE THOSE VOICES.
BECAUSE WITH HE DO -- WE NEED TO
RESIST THIS TYPE OF HOSTILE
ENVIRONMENT.
>> AND THEN I JUST WONDERED WHAT
YOU FELT IN TERMS OF THE BIGGER
PICTURE.
FOR INSTANCE, THE CLIMATE CHANGE
AND THE ACCORDS, PRESIDENT TRUMP
PULLING THE U.S. OUT OF IT.
FROM WHAT YOU'RE SAYING AND FROM
WHAT YOU'RE OBSERVING, DO YOU
THINK THERE'S ANY WAY THE
PRESIDENT WILL REVERSE THAT?
AND IF HE DOESN'T REVERSE
PULLING OUT, WILL -- WILL HE
TAKE THE STEPS THAT MAKE, YOU
KNOW, THE U.S. STOP DOING ITS
PART?
>> IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR ME
TO SPECULATE ON THAT KIND OF
THING.
MY FOCUS HAS BEEN CLIMATE
CHANGE, ADAPTATION, RESILIENCE.
BECAUSE REGARDLESS OF WHAT
HAPPENS AND HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT
CAUSES OF CLIMATE CHANGE, EVEN
THOUGH WE KNOW THAT'S ALL VERY
REAL, THERE ARE EFFECTS RIGHT
NOW HAPPENING, AND THERE ARE
VULNERABLE POPULATIONS IN PLACE
THAT WE NEED TO PROTECT.
SO THAT'S WHERE I GENERALLY
FOCUS MY ENERGY.
IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO SPECULATE
ON WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT
AT THE WHITE HOUSE.
>> AND JUST QUICKLY, A CHILLING
EFFECT.
DO OTHERS FEAR SPEAKING OUT, AND
DO YOU FEAR FURTHER RETALIATION
FROM DOING THIS INTERVIEW, FOR
INSTANCE?
>> YEAH, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO
EXPECT.
I'LL TRUST THE INVESTIGATION
THAT THE OFFICE OF SPECIAL
COUNSEL WILL NOW CONDUCT.
I WILL SAY THAT IT'S BEEN
ABSOLUTELY OVERWHELMING AND
HUMBLING, THE RESPONSE THAT I'VE
GOTTEN FROM NOT JUST AROUND THE
COUNTRY, BUT FROM OTHER CIVIL
SERVICE FOLKS AND MANY AGENCIES
HAVE BEEN REACHING OUT SAYING,
THANKS, WE FEEL INSPIRED,
EMPOWERED.
WE'RE GLAD TO HAVE SOMEONE OUT
THERE WITH A VOICE RIGHT NOW.

US climate scientist: I was pushed out

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