Former Defense Secretary William Cohen: North Korea Is 'Not Suicidal' | Morning Joe

>>> COULD THIS BE A DELIBERATE PLAN TO TALK ABOUT FIRE, FURY
AND POWER THE LIKES OF WHICH THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN TO SORT OF
OUTCRAZY A CRAZY LEADER IN NORTH KOREA?
>> NOT A CHANCE. THIS IS JUST IMPULSIVE ILL
THOUGHT OUT ACTION THAT IS UNLIKELY TO DO ANYTHING BUT MOVE
US MORE TOWARD A CONFRONTATION. THIS WAS NOT WRITTEN BY THE
NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL, H.R. McMASTER.
THIS IS RIGHT OFF THE TOP OF HIS HEAD IN HIS HOTEL.
>> THAT IS GENERAL BARRY McCAFFREY YESTERDAY WITH NICOLE,
AND JUST MOMENTS AGO, SECRETARY OF STATE REX TILLERSON LANDED IN
GUAM ON A SCHEDULED REFUELING STOP ON THE WAY BACK HOME AND
DESPITE SOME HOT RHETORIC FROM NORTH KOREA IN RESPONSE TO
PRESIDENT TRUMP, SECRETARY TILLERSON SAID THERE IS "NO
IMMINENT THREAT" AND HE TOLD REPORTERS THIS.
>> I THINK AMERICANS SHOULD SLEEP WELL AT NIGHT, HAVE NO
CONCERNS ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR RHETORIC OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS.
I THINK THE PRESIDENT AGAIN AS COMMANDER IN CHIEF FELT IT
NECESSARY TO ISSUE A VERY STRONG STATEMENT DIRECTLY TO NORTH
KOREA, BUT I THINK WHAT THE PRESIDENT WAS JUST REAFFIRMING
IS THE UNITED STATES HAS THE CAPABILITY TO FULLY DEFEND
ITSELF FROM ANY ATTACK AND DEFEND OUR ALLIES, AND WE WILL
DO SO. SO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SHOULD
SLEEP WELL AT NIGHT. >> SECRETARY TILLERSON TALKING
ABOUT THE NOW SPECIFIC THREAT AGAINST GUAM FROM NORTH KOREA.
JOINING US NOW RANKING MEMBER OF THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS
COMMITTEE, SENATOR BEN CARDIN OF MARYLAND AND WASHINGTON FORMER
SECRETARY OF DEFENSE WILLIAM COHEN.
GENTLEMEN, WELCOME. WE HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS FOR
YOU, STARTING WITH JOE. >> MR. SECRETARY, LET'S BEGIN
WITH YOU. YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY BEEN IMMERSED
IN THIS ISSUE FOR QUITE SOME TIME.
BARACK OBAMA TOLD DONALD TRUMP DURING THE TRASITION THAT NORTH
KOREA WOULD BE ONE OF HIS BIGGEST PROBLEMS BUT THIS IS A
PROBLEM YOU WERE DEALING WITH BACK IN THE '90s.
TELL US WHAT'S HAPPENED, AND WHAT WE CAN EXPECT MOVING
FORWARD. >> WELL, THE NORTH KOREANS HAVE
SIMPLY ACCELERATED THEIR DEVELOPMENT AND THEIR GOAL TO
DEVELOP A NUCLEAR CAPABILITY, ONE THAT CAN THREATEN THE UNITED
STATES, BUT THEY ARE NOT SUICIDAL, AND THIS IS THE
MESSAGE THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS SENT OR SHOULD SEND IN A WAY
THAT DOESN'T SOUND, AND I HAVE TO HYPHENATE THE WORD
BOMB-BASTIC. THAT LANGUAGE IS NOT GOING TO
INTIMIDATE THE NORTH KOREANS. TO ME, IT'S ALWAYS BETTER, YOU
SEE AN ENEMY THAT REMAINS SILENT THAT'S MORE FRIGHTENING THAN
SOMEONE WHO IS BEATING HIS CHEST OR ENGAGING IN SCHOOLYARD BANTER
OR LOCKER ROOM LANGUAGE, THAN TO HAVE A MORE, YOU KNOW, POWERFUL
IMPACT. SO I THINK SILENCE WOULD HAVE
BEEN VERY GOOD HERE, AND LET THE DIPLOMATS LIKE SECRETARY
TILLERSON, LET THE OTHERS WHO ARE TRYING TO BRING ABOUT A
PEACEFUL SOLUTION TO THIS HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO SO.
BUT SIMPLY ISSUING THREATS, WHICH THE NORTH KOREANS ARE NOT
GOING TO TAKE AS SERIOUS, BECAUSE THEY KNOW INTUITIVELY I
THINK THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT GOING TO LAUNCH A PREEMPTIVE
ATTACK PUTTING AT RISK HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS IF NOT MILLIONS OF
SOUTH KOREANS AND JAPANESE AND OTHERS.
SO I THINK WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF THE RHETORIC.
IT DOESN'T PUSH US CLOSER BUT IT WAS PRETTY BOMBASTIC.
>> MR. SECRETARY IF YOU COULD EXPAND ON YOUR COMMENTS NORTH
KOREA IS NOT SUICIDAL. WE IN THE WEST TRY TO PAINT THEM
AS IRRATIONAL, POSSIBLY SUICIDAL, CRAZY.
IN FACT, FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW, LOOKING AT WHAT HAPPENED
WITH LIBYA, AND MOAMMAR GADHAFI WHEN HE GAVE UP HIS WEAPONS
PROGRAM, MANY BELIEVE THAT THE NORTH KOREANS THINK THE MOST
SUICIDAL APPROACH WOULD BE NOT TO DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND
BE EXPOSED TO POSSIBLY HAVING THEIR REGIME OVERTHROWN.
THEY SEE THAT AS THEIR PROTECTION AGAINST WHAT HAPPENED
TO GADHAFI IN LIBYA. >> IF YOU GO BACK TO THE CHINESE
STRATEGIST SUN SU, HE SAID YOU MUST KNOW YOUR ENEMY AND TO KNOW
YOUR ENEMY YOU MUST THINK LIKE YOUR ENEMY.
I THINK WE HAVE TO DO MORE OF THAT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEIR
GOAL IS. THEIR GOAL IS NOT TO INVITE A
NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST. THEIR GOAL IS TO REMAIN SECURE
IN PERPETUITY WITH THE FAMILY, IF THEY CAN, TO DEVELOP THEIR
COUNTRY AND HOPEFULLY THEY THINK ONE DAY TO DOMINATE THE KOREAN
PENINSULA, WHETHER BY INTIMIDATION, OR BY SOME SORT OF
AN AGREEMENT WHICH TAKES DOWN THE BARRIERS, WHERE YOU CAN HAVE
A UNITED KOREA THAT IS NOT MILITARIZED.
NOW, THAT MAY BE PIE IN THE SKY, BUT THEY ARE NOT TAKING ACTION
TO INVITE AN ATTACK BY THE UNITED STATES.
THAT IS TOTALLY COUNTER INTUITIVE CERTAINLY FROM OUR
POINT AND I BELIEVE FROM THEIRS. >> SENATOR CARDIN YOU WERE
CRITICAL OF THE FIRE AND FURY COMMENT YESTERDAY, YOU SAY HE
LACKS THE TEMPERAMENT AND JUDGMENT TO DEAL WITH A SERIOUS
CRISIS THE UNITED STATES CONFRONTS.
WHAT IS YOUR SPECIFIC CONCERN AS IT RELATES NOT TO THE
PRESIDENT'S TEMPERAMENT BUT WHAT IT MEANS FOR FOREIGN POLICY, THE
UNITED STATES AND NATIONAL SECURITY.
>> I THINK THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS LOOKING TO THE
UNITED STATES FOR LEADERSHIP TO AVOID A MILITARY CONFRONTATION
WITH NORTH KOREA THAT COULD WELL INVOLVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND
WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID WAS JUST NOT HELPFUL, BUT ALSO RAISES THE
QUESTION TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WHETHER THE UNITED
STATES HAS A GAME PLAN FOR NORTH KOREA IN ORDER TO CHANGE THE
EQUATIONS. SO I THINK IT WAS JUST THE WRONG
MESSAGE, AND ELEVATED THE SITUATION RATHER THAN SHOWING
THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY THERE IS HOPE FOR A DIPLOMATIC
SOLUTION. >> IT'S NOW SENATOR, A PHAM
REFRAIN THERE ARE NO GOOD OPTIONS WHEN IT COMES TO NORTH
KOREA. AT THIS POINT, GIVEN WHAT YOU'VE
SAID AND GIVEN THE NEW RHETORIC AND ALSO THE TESTS WE'VE SEEN
OWN THE REPORTS FROM NBC NEWS THAT NORTH KOREA DOES NOW HAVE
NUCLEAR CAPABILITY THAT CAN BE ATTACHED TO AN ICBM, WHAT IS THE
BEST COURSE OF ACTION FOR THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW?
>> I THINK THE BEST COURSE OF ACTION IS TO CONTINUE TO WORK
WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO CHANGE THE EQUATION
PARTICULARLY FOR CHINA, SO CHINA BECOMES MUCH MORE ENGAGED IN
WORKING TO GET NORTH KOREA TO AT LEAST FREEZE THEIR PROGRAM, TO
SIT DOWN AND TALK, TO SHOW THAT THERE'S A PATH FORWARD AND I
AGREE WITH THE SECRETARY. I THINK WHAT THE NORTH KOREANS
WANT IS TO PRESERVE THEIR REGIME.
CHINA ALSO WANTS TO PRESERVE THAT TYPE OF REGIME IN NORTH
KOREA, SO WE SHOULD HAVE A COMMON AGENDA WITH CHINA TO EASE
BACK ON THE CURRENT SITUATION IN NORTH KOREA.
>> DAVID IGNATIUS? >> I WANT TO ASK SECRETARY
COHEN, MR. SECRETARY, WITHOUT DIVULGING THINGS THAT WERE
CLASSIFIED, GIVE US A SENSE, WE ALWAYS TALK ABOUT HOW BAD THE
MILITARY OPTIONS ARE IN DEALING WITH NORTH KOREA.
YOU'VE LOOKED CAREFULLY AT THIS. GIVE US A SENSE OF THE OPTIONS
AND WHY THEY TROUBLE PEOPLE WHO LOOK AT THEM.
>> WELL, AS WE KNOW THE NORTH KOREANS HAVE AS MANY AS 15,000,
20,000 ARTILLERY CAPABILITY ABOUT 40 MILES, 45 MILES FROM
DOWNTOWN SEOUL. THEY COULD RAIN SEOUL WITH THESE
MISSILES, AND DESTROY IT, IN A MATTER OF A FEW HOURS OR DAYS,
IF NECESSARY. THEY ALSO HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS,
WHICH ARE BURIED DEEP IN THEIR TERRITORY, HARD TO DETECT, HARD
TO GET AT. SO THE NOTION THAT WE WOULD
LAUNCH A PREEMPTIVE ATTACK THINKING WE COULD WIPE THEM OUT
BEFORE THEY COULD STRIKE IS I THINK FOOLHEARTY AND THAT IS ONE
OF THE REASON THE MILITARY COMMANDERS NEVER HAVE IN MY
JUDGMENT ADVOCATED WE TAKE A PREEMPTIVE MILITARY STRIKE
AGAINST NORTH KOREANS. IF WE'RE TRYING TO SEND A SIGNAL
TO THE CHINESE AND TO OTHERS, WHAT WE OUGHT TO DO IS CALL THE
SOUTH KOREAN PRESIDENT MOON AND SAY PUT THE THAAD MISSILE SYSTEM
BACK ON TRACK. YOU SUSPENDED IT.
PUT IT BACK ON TRACK. THAT GIVES YOU SOME DEFENSIVE
CAPABILITY. GO TO THE JAPANESE AND SAY
PERHAPS IT'S TIME FOR YOU TO HAVE THE THAADAD SYSTEM THERE A
WELL. START DOING THOSE THINGS IN
CONJUNCTION WITH THE SANCTIONS THAT HAVE JUST BEEN VOTED UPON
AND START SQUEEZING THE NORTH KOREANS AND SAYING IT'S GOING TO
GET TOUGHER FOR YOU. WE'LL MAKE IT HARD FOR YOU TO
CONTINUE THIS TESTING AND HAVING THE RESOURCES TO DO IT AND THEN
MAYBE THEY'LL BE IN A MOOD AT THAT POINT WITH THE HELP OF THE
CHINESE AND THE RUSSIANS LET'S GET BACK TO THE TABLE SO WE CAN
SOLVE THIS. THE UNITED STATES SHOULD BE
DETERMINED TO SQUEEZE LIKE A PYTHON THE NORTH KOREANS IN
SAYING WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE THIS ON A NONMILITARY BASIS BUT
MAKE IT VERY PAINFUL FOR YOU TO CONTINUE IN THE WAY YOU'RE
DOING. I THINK THE NOTION THAT THE
MILITARY IS NOW ACCELERATING THEIR PLANNING FOR A MILITARY
ATTACK, WE'VE ALWAYS HAD PLANS FOR WHAT IF.
WHAT IF WE HAVE TO GO FIRST, WHAT IF WE HAVE TO RESPOND?
SO THAT'S NOT SOMETHING NEW, AND I THINK SECRETARY TILLERSON'S
COMMENTS ARE JUST THE RIGHT ONES.
LET'S TAKE A DEEP BREATH, REST EASY AT NIGHT.
WE HAVE A CAPABILITY OF DETERRENCE AND DESTRUCTIVE
CAPABILITY SECOND TO NONE. WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY TO THE
POINT WHERE IT BECOMES HYSTERICAL OR WHAT THE NEXT MOVE
IS BY THEM OR WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SAY IN RESPONSE TO WHAT
THEY'RE DOING. >> SENATOR CARDIN, ANDREA
MITCHELL'S INITIAL REPORTING EARLIER THIS MORNING INDICATES
THAT DEFENSE, THE NSC, AS WELL AS THE CHIEF OF STAFF, HAD VERY
LITTLE INPUT, IF ANY, INTO THE PRESIDENT'S STATEMENT ISSUED
YESTERDAY. THAT LEAVES THREE GENERALS WITH
THE KNOWLEDGE, MILITARY KNOWLEDGE, FOREIGN AFFAIRS SORT
OF OUT OF THE LOOP ACCORDING TO THIS REPORTING.
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT? >> WELL, I THINK THIS IS HOW
PRESIDENT TRUMP OPERATES, AND I THINK IT'S VERY UNFORTUNATE.
IT'S NOT THE WAY YOU SHOULD BE CONDUCTING FOREIGN POLICY.
AS SECRETARY COHEN SAID THERE'S NOT REALLY A GOOD MILITARY
OPTION HERE. THE BEST OPTION IS TO CONTINUE A
PROCESS IN WHICH WE ISOLATE NORTH KOREA, AND CHANGE THE
EQUATIONS PARTICULARLY FOR CHINA, AND RUSSIA, TO HELP US TO
AVOID THIS TYPE OF A MILITARY CONFRONTATION.
THAT'S OUR BEST STRATEGY, AND WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS DOING BY
MAKING HIS OWN UNILATERAL DECISIONS THAT INDICATE THAT
WE'RE READY TO START A MILITARY CONFRONTATION, THAT'S JUST
MOVING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION TO GET THE TYPE OF INTERNATIONAL
RESPONSE WE NEED TO GET NORTH KOREA TO FREEZE THEIR PROGRAM,
SIT DOWN AND NEGOTIATE A PEACEFUL END TO THIS NUCLEAR
CONFRONTATION. >> SENATOR BEN CARDIN, RANKING
MEMBER FOREIGN RELATIONS AND FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY BILL
COHEN GREAT TO HAVE YOUR PERSPECTIVE.
>>> STILL AHEAD PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NO FAN OF WHAT HE CALLS FAKE
NEWS, OFTEN REPORTING ABOUT HIS STRUGGLES IN THE WHITE HOUSE.
NEW REPORT SAYS HE GETS SOME GOOD NEWS AS WELL, SO

Former Defense Secretary William Cohen: North Korea Is 'Not Suicidal' | Morning Joe | MSNBC

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