'It Was A Tremendous Day For Special Counsel Robert Mueller' | Morning Joe

AND W AN MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR, CAROL LENNING.
>> JULIE, WE ALL FIGURED OUT, I HEARD THE CONVERSATION, YOU'RE
WIRED. >> OH, BOY.
WEARING A WIRE. >> YOU'VE SORT OF BEEN IN THIS
NEIGHBORHOOD. TELL US ABOUT IT.
>> I'VE BEEN ROAMING AROUND THESE FOLKS FOR A WHILE.
GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS SHOWED UP ON THIS LIST OF FOREIGN POLICY
ADVISER, AND THERE'S A LOT OF REVISIONIST HISTORY.
WHY HE READ IT OFF AT "THE WASHINGTON POST" MEETING, THE
LIST. THIS WAS A POINT IN THE CAMPAIGN
WHERE HE WAS UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE TO SAY HE HAD ADVISERS
ON POLICY. THE FACT THAT HE READ THIS OFF,
AT THE TIME IT WAS LOOKED AT AS SOMETHING THAT WAS JUST MAYBE A
LIST THAT WAS HANDED TO HIM, BUT I'VE TALKED TO GEORGE.
OTHER PEOPLE HAVE. IN PART BECAUSE THE OTHER PERSON
WHO WAS ON THAT LIST WHO HAS GOTTEN SO MUCH ATTENTION IS

SAID WHILE CARTER WAS NOT IN THE ROOM WITH THE PRESIDENT WHILE HE
WAS NOT AROUND MUCH, THAT GEORGE WAS AROUND AT LEAST IF NOT
AROUND THE PRESIDENT ALL THE TIME, THERE WAS A POLICY SHOP
THAT WAS BEING OPERATED OUT OF THE CAMPAIGN HEAD QUARTERS IN
VIRGINIA AND THAT HE WAS THERE AND INVOLVED IN DISCUSSIONS.
>> FAIR TO SAY IN YOUR EXPERIENCED REPORTING IS GEORGE
PAPADOPOULOS WAS NOT JUST A VOLUNTEER, NOT SOMEBODY THAT
DIDN'T HAVE INFLUENCE? >> I WOULDN'T CALL HIM A MAJOR
PLAYER, BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THERE WAS THE CAMPAIGN HEAD
QUARTERS WHERE YOU HAD PAUL MANAFORT AND CORY LUN DOUSE SI
AND DONALD TRUMP IN THE FAMILY, AND YOU HAD A POLICY SHOP OUT OF
VIRGINIA THAT WAS TRYING TO CREATE POLICY FOR THIS CAMPAIGN.
>> WAS HE PUTTING BUMPER STICKERS ON OR DOING RUSSIA
POLICY? >> WE NEVER GOT CLARITY ON WHAT
HE OR THE OTHERS PRODUCED, BUT THEY WERE THERE OPERATING.
>> HOW DOES HE GET TO THE CAMPAIGN?
WHO GETS HIM INTO THE CAMPAIGN? >> THIS IS ANOTHER MYSTERY THAT
NO ONE WANTS TO TAKE OWNERSHIP FOR.
THERE ARE A COUPLE OF OTHER OFFICIALS WHO FACTOR INTO THE
DECISION MAKING ABOUT WHO WAS ON THE LIST.
ONE IS SAM CLOVES. ANOTHER IS BARRY BENNETT.
>> CAROL, YOU'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME REPORTING ON PAUL MANAFORT.
WHAT CAN YOU TELL US? >> WELL, IT'S PRETTY AMAZING TO
THINK THAT THE CHAIRMAN OF A CAMPAIGN SOMEHOW IS ACCUSED NOW
OF LAUNDERING 12 TO 13 TO $18 MILLION IN MONEY HE DIDN'T
REPORT, IN ALLEGED TAX EVASION, CREATING 17 DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS
IN DIFFERENT PLACES TO BANK MONEY THAT HE DIDN'T SHARE WITH
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OR WITH THE IRS.
IT'S A STRIKING DOCUMENT, THIS UNSEALED INDICTMENT.
>> ALL RIGHT. LET'S BRING IN A LAW PROFESSOR
AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY,
AND ALSO JOYCE VANCE. >> JOYCE, LOOKING AT EVERYTHING
THAT CAME DOWN YESTERDAY FROM BOB MUELLER'S OFFICE, WHAT'S
YOUR IMPRESSION? >> MY IMPRESSION IS MUELLER HAS
LAUNCHED THE OPENING SALVO IN WHAT WILL BE A LONG AND
SUCCESSFUL WAR. IT'S AN IMPRESSIVE INDICTMENT,
THIS CHARGING DOCUMENT AGAINST MANAFORT AND GATES.
IT'S RICH IN DETAIL. THEY'VE OBVIOUSLY FOLLOWED THE
MONEY AND PUT THAT PAPER TRAIL INTO THE INDICTMENT.
MANY OF THESE CHARGES ARE ALMOST SELF-PROVING IN THE SENSE THAT
IT'S THE FAILURE TO FILE W WHIC CANNOT BE CONTESTED THAT LEADS
TO CRIMINAL LIABILITY. AND THEN THE ONE, TWO PUNCH
FOLLOWING THE MANAFORT AND GATES INDICTMENT WITH THIS TREMENDOUS
NEWS THAT THERE'S A GUILTY PLEA AND A PROACTIVE CORPORATOR IN
GEORGE PAPADOPOULOS SENDS A STRONG MESSAGE THAT MUELLER
DIDN'T PLAYING AROUND. THIS INVESTIGATION WILL REACH
THE WHITE HOUSE LAWN AND PERHAPS THE OVAL OFFICE.
IT WAS A TREMENDOUS DAY FOR BOB MUELLER.
>> WAS THERE ANY FORESHADOWING IN WHAT YOU READ YESTERDAY THAT
SUGGESTS WHERE BOB MUELLER IS GOING YESTERDAY OR WHERE HIS
ULTIMATE DESTINATION IS? >> I THINK AT DINNER TABLES LAST
NIGHT AND PERHAPS IN LAWYER'S OFFICES THIS MORNING, ANYONE WHO
HAD INVOLVEMENT IN THIS ENTIRE SCHEME, WHETHER THEY WERE HIGH
OR LOW IN KNOWLEDGE IS TALKING ABOUT WHETHER THEY NOW NEED TO
GO AHEAD AND VOLUNTEER WHAT THEY KNOW TO PROSECUTERS.
DO THEY NEED TO BE FIRST IN AND CUT SOME SORT OF A DEAL TO SAVE
THEMSELVES BEFORE OTHERS DO THAT?
MUELLER'S NEXT STEPS, I THINK WILL DEPEND ON WHAT HE HEARS AND
FRANKLY, IT'S UNLIKELY THAT PAPADOPOULOS WAS THE ONLY
COOPERATOR. I THINK THERE MAY BE MANY OTHER
FOLKS WHO HAVE BEEN WEARING WIRES AND MAKING PHONE CALLS THE
LAST FEW MONTHS. >> JOYCE, IF PAUL MANAFORT WENT
TO TRIAL, IF HE WERE FOUND GUILTY ON CHARGES OF MONEY
LAUNDERING, TAX EVASION FROM A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, THE UKRAINE,
OR WHEREVER, WHAT WOULD BE THE SENTENCING RECOMMENDATION?
>> SO FEDERAL SENTENCING IS A LITTLE COMPLICATED.
YOU SEE A NUMBER IN THE STATUTE. WE'RE HEARING 20 YEARS ON THE
MONEY LAUNDERING CHARGES. ACTUALLY, IT'S NOT QUITE THAT
HIGH. THERE'S A GUIDELINE CALCULATION
THAT'S PREPARED FOR A FEDERAL JUDGE AT SENTENCING.
IT'S BASED ON THE DEFENDANT'S PRIOR CRIMINAL HISTORY AND HIS
CONDUCT IN THE CASE HE'S BEING CHARGED IN.
AND FINANCIAL CRIMES, THAT SENTENCE IS VERY STRONGLY DRIVEN
BY THE DOLLAR AMOUNT INVOLVED. HERE THE DOLLAR AMOUNTS ARE
ASTRONOMICAL. MANAFORT IS PROBABLY LOOKING AT
SOMETHING IN A RANGE OF 152 MONTHS AND PROSECUTERS COULD ASK
THE JUDGE TO DEPART UPWARDS TO ENHANCE THE SENTENCE AND MAKE IT
LONGER BECAUSE HIS CONDUCT WAS SO INCREDIBLY HARMFUL TO THE
INTERESTS OF THE COUNTRY. >> JONATHAN, WE FOCUSSED ON PAUL
MANAFORT BECAUSE HE'S SUCH A WELL KNOWN FIGURE.
AND WE WATCHED HIM THROUGHOUT THE CAMPAIGN.
BUT THERE'S ANOTHER NAME ON THE INDICTMENT, GATES.
>> THE PROBLEM, MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT WHETHER
MANAFORT HIMSELFLF COULD FLIP. THAT'S UNLIKELY, BECAUSE HE'S
THE MATINEE DEFENDANT. THAT'S A BAD POSITION TO BE IN.
HE IS THE PRIZE RIGHT NOW. SO TO GET THIS TYPE OF PLEA,
YOU'VE GOT TO BRING DELIVERABLES.
YOU HAVE TO SHOW YOU CAN DELIVER SOMEBODY HIGHER.
IF YOU'RE A MATINEE DFRT, IT HAS TO BE ANOTHER MATINEE TARGET.
IT'S NOT CLEAR HE HAS THAT TYPE OF INFORMATION.
GATES IS DIFFERENT. HE'S NOT THE LOWEST HANGING
FRUIT, BUT HE'S IN A POSITION THAT IF HE CAN SUPPLY
DELIVERABLES AGAINST MANAFORT OR PEOPLE ABOVE MANAFORT, HE
HONESTLY COULD AVOID JAIL TIME OR HAVE VERY LITTLE.
HE'S THE ONE TO WATCH. SO IS GENERAL FLYNN.
THE FACT THAT WE HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT GENERAL FLYNN IS
VERY SURPRISING. THOSE FAIR ACCOUNTS IN THE
COMPLAINT. THERE'S ONLY ABOUT SEVEN
PROSECUTIONS. THIS IS A WEIRD MIX, VERY
SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS, AND YOU HAVE THESE FAIR ACCOUNTS.
THAT SENDS A MESSAGE TO PEOPLE LIKE FLYNN, POTENTIALLY TONY
PODESTA AND OTHERS THAT WE JUST NAILED A GUY FOR THIS.
YOU COULD WHITE OUT MANAFORT'S NAME AND PUT A COUPLE OF NAMES
IN THOSE GRAPHS AND THEY WOULD READ JUST FINE.
>> JEREMY, YOU LOOK AT GATES. HE'S A GUY THAT NOT ONLY WAS
THERE DURING THE CAMPAIGN, BUT EVEN AFTER MANAFORT LEFT, HE WAS
STILL THERE. WORKED TOWARD THE END OF THE
CAMPAIGN. WORKED ON THE INAUGURAL
COMMITTEE. WORKED AS A LIAISON, I BELIEVE
TO THE RNC. AND HE WAS ABOUT TO START
HELPING TRUMP'S OUTSIDE SUPERPAC.
SO THIS GUY HAS BEEN THERE FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.
HAS A LOT TO TELL. >> YEAH.
HE HAS EVERY INCENTIVE TO COOPERATE RIGHT NOW.
HE HAS INFORMATION NOT JUST ABOUT THE EFFORT BY
RUSSIAN-BACKED UKRAINIAN ENTITIES TO INFLUENCE
WASHINGTON. THE MONEY LAUNDERING, THE TAX
EVASION, BUT HE POTENTIALLY HAS INFORMATION ABOUT THE CAMPAIGN.
HE ALSO HAS INFORMATION ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.
>> SO JULIE, WE'RE COMING UP ALMOST ON 24 HOURS SINCE WE'VE
HEARD FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
IT'S A RARE THING THESE DAYS. HOW CONCERN SECOND DOWN THE
WHITE HOUSE AS YOU REPORT YESTERDAY, AND WHAT ARE THEY
MOST WORRIED ABOUT? >> THEY'RE CONCERNED.
YOU'RE SEEING A LOT OF PUBLIC BRUSHING OFF OF WHAT HAPPENED
YESTERDAY, BUT CERTAINLY THERE'S A HIGH LEVEL OF CONCERN NOT ONLY
BECAUSE OF WHAT WE SAW WITH THESE THREE PEOPLE, BUT BECAUSE
WE'RE IN A PHASE OF THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION WHERE YOU HAVE
FORMER WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS AND CURRENT WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS
WHO ARE GOING BEFORE MUELLER AND THE MESSAGE THAT MUELLER SENT IS
THAT HE'S TAKING THINGS LIKE LYING TO HIM AND TO HIS
PROSECUTERS AS REALLY SERIOUS OFFENSE.
IT SENDS -- I THINK IT COULD HAVE A CHILLING EFFECT ON PEOPLE
WHO ARE CURRENTLY IN THIS WHITE HOUSE.
>> DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE WITHIN THE WHITE HOUSE STAFF HOW MANY
HAVE RETAINED LAWYERS? >> SEVERAL HAVE, FOR SURE.
CERTAINLY THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEFT J SEAN SPICER, REINCE
PRIEBUS. WE KNOW HOPE HICKS, A CLOSE
CONFIDANT OF THE PRESIDENT HAS. JARED KUSHNER HAS RETAINED
COUNSEL. IT'S PRETTY WIDESPREAD WITHIN
THE WEST WING RIGHT NOW. >> AND THEN THE QUESTION IS WHO
WAS WIRED AND WHO MIGHT TURN THEMSELVES IN RIGHT NOW AND GET
A DEAL TO SAVE
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'It Was A Tremendous Day For Special Counsel Robert Mueller' | Morning Joe | MSNBC

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